Now heres the thing, In Christ Alone is one of my favorite songs. Jacobus Arminius 21. I didnt say childish. Thank you for letting me know what you think Jesus meant. I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others.. External Leaders When members begin to question the fidelity of their pastor's teaching, they rarely (regrettably) go to their pastor. A secondary cause is always subservient to the primary cause, which is God. Im a musician in a band the skill level I have now is directly proportional to how many times Ive absolutely made a total fool of myself in front of people. Not really thinking things though. I understand its maddening to shoot at a moving target. Best Overall non calvinist systematic theology: This non calvinist systematic theology is the king of the hill. All I can say is that I do the best I have with the mind Ive been given. Its very difficult and exhausting having a conversation with people who claim you never, ever get their views correct. We have a question for you? (Okay, back into lurk..later, yall!). However, they are limited, just as we are. New Calvinism is not a new branch of theology or a denomination. As in I Got It Right! I went through what Calvinists themselves call the cage stage, meaning that young or new Calvinists belong in one. Going to church in the north during those days was different. And that I need to keep praying that God will teach me to love them the way he wants me to. Plus I had never heard of tongues). @ Muff Potter: I know this all too well, Im afraid, but it goes for *anything* even art, music, theater, etc. I have been given books and literature from They always enter the discussion with the premises well defined; and the cornerstone premise is that you are wrong and they are right. Per PSA, I am pretty sure that that is the official stance of the Lutheran end of thingsbut I really shouldnt be talking about theories of the atonement because I havent studied them worth a hoot. Its really beyond my comprehension, so I dont think about it too much. 1911. I am sure that I didn't pray correctly. And if the term is ambiguous, then I its wise to be careful and specific in criticism. Ive seen only the first 15 minutes so far, and what he says makes sense to me: Is God the AUTHOR OF SIN? Takes great delight in you living your life, the ups and the downs. Much of what I am reading here involves debating or defining what Calvin wrote, etc. (But I always wondered why, if it was not His desire that any man should perish, that He also would create someone specifically for hell?? He, as I said previously, shows quotes by Calvinists during the video. God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point. The same dynamic that caused Charles Darwin to say I am not a Darwinist and Karl Marx to say I am not a Marxist? I know this sounds like a broad brush, but I think people need to know this dirty little secret. I am having trouble keeping up with all the comments between the two. whats so complicated about that? He isnt at cross-purposes with Himself, so the question is silly. How wonderful to remember those days! Im glad I know that now. This sort of stuff is bad and will cause an increase in problems within the church universal. The list 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians includes Gary North (Christian Reconstructionist), Stephen Tong, D. A. Carson, John F. MacArthur and R. C. Sproul. Fine- no one is calling him out. My husbands extended family are Calvinists, his lovely aunts family goes to a Reformed (Calvinist) church in an area considered a Bible Belt in Canada (these are very small geographic regions, unlike the US, where it spans states, it spans about a county), the church is large, evangelical and allows women in all church leadership positions. If I had to pick one thing about them that signals danger to me, though, it would be what they dont act on, which is all those chickified wishy-washy decaffy gay things Jesus (and subsequently the apostles) said about love being The Main Thing. Im just genuinely puzzled about this. We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. And if you reject the doctrine as it has been historically understood (like the guy at my church), then at least you are wrestling with a time tested theology, not a new fad, and wrestling with time tested theology can only help you grow as a Christian. That is where I focus when it comes to the existence of evil and suffering. Our sinful human nature craves it. But if you think about it, thats not all that surprising. Do they represent your brand of reformed thought? Howard Hendricks 20. In both cases, mans mind is wholly incapable of real understanding. It doesnt conform to our sense of fairness and love. Someone should alert Crossway immediately. These are things that we can work on together, no matter our view on election. And with a similar base assumption as Islam would resemble Islam as time goes on and Entropy sets in the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. (Sorry, elastigirl, but you were so honest about the kind of God we all want that I have to use your example.) Dee, thank you for sharing that testimony, and article. Why does a house wife bring more glory to God than a female scientist who wins a Nobel prize for her work? Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. For some time now, my blog posts have pursued an inquiry of how non-Calvinists and Calvinists among Southern Baptists have come to be involved in a public conversation on their respective positions. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. Id like to comment on one: Accept that Calvinists find peace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. Your next sentence is They do not understand why this brings others great pain.. This is not the Calvinist thought process. (I mean, Star Trek?). CALVIN! To insist on it is to cling to an inadequate, incorrect understanding of God, IMO. The fundamental non-negotiables of our faith, those that if not agreed upon prevent us from calling each other brothers or sisters are found in 4 ancient creeds. We can just debate doctrine. And further, since Calvinism declares that God elects never based on any acts or will of man, of what use is it even to distinguish between good and evil, even if man could know them? One more point- there have been those on this board who have argued before (in fact, I think Dee was one) that there is a difference between God causing something and God allowing something. @ JeffB: Luther also wrote a great deal about Romans 8 and similar passages. (an extremely brief synopsis:) Ive become a more capable musician as a result. In what way it is wrong needs to be determined. I will post about this. Again, if it were a matter of someone, as I put it earlier, beating someone over the head with their beliefs, that would be different. Though its not nearly as esoteric and egghead as supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot, @ Headless Unicorn Guy:YOu should see my Christmas tree. IMO he has helped destroy the Southern Baptist Convention, but no one dare tell him this. Calvinists are Christians and Calvinists and non-Calvinist Christians share a multitude of common ideas and beliefs. 5) Likewise, everything we do for others should NOT be because we love them, but to bring glory to God. The Calvinistas act on a lot of things. Roger E. Olson (born 1952) is Professor of Theology, George W. Truett Theological Seminary, Baylor University, Waco, Texas, USA. Lets get this person through their crisis and love on them. Based on my experience, the experience of Oasis both of us who have had very difficult childhood abuse experiences and other stories Ive been reading, especially of teens abandoning their faith, having emotional breakdowns and even suicide, why do we need to focus on Calvins system? Ask a lot of questions. I much prefer interacting with the Holy Spirit and reading Scripture. @ Julie Anne: I dont find that these scenarios were what Jesus intended. That was not the case with Pete Briscoe as pastor. Admittedly, Im not famous enough to have followers trying to define Bulbeckism. He is NOT against us, but thank God, He is for us!! Anyways, just to say, Calvinism is a much larger group than the current T4G/TGC and followers. That should be enough to cause himto squirm. I met my husband when he wandered over to Park Street after he attended a service at Tremont Temple. If a man chooses to rape a woman, does God have the power to stop him? But what I am hoping is that you, as well as me, can instead understand the objections so well that you can begin to understand why a few quotes from Calvin, along with a few Bible verses, do not answer the deeper questions.. When we say, during the inevitable discussion of Gods sovereignty with a traumatized person, that even wrongs are ordained because God ordains all, we cause existential damage. Never once did I hear the word Calvin. Yes, I believe that what were on earth mainly to do is bring glory to God They never want to explain just what this glory is, as you said. And those who might still reject it, might also be rejecting it for the wrong reasons and miss out on some important wrestling that could help them grow. Thanks for posting it. For example, I will admit that I do not see how a good, all powerful God can exist while evil also exists. As for it being our purpose in life, its about as inspiring as a plate of lima beans for breakfast. Sort of like reading Cliff Notes instead of the book. I think that is why it is good that Dee/Deb use the term Cavinista. (LogOut/ The guy wearing glasses in the video gave an interesting explanation, though he chose to use the Fall in the Garden, rather than a more contemporary example. And I agree with this. But it will, by that, also have less life in it because it stays in the realm of ideas. When I, a Calvinist (as much as would prefer not to wear the title), hear someone say Calvinism is evil, yes I want to defend it. We can learn some from them, but much of what they proposed brought bondage to systems, pain, and even death to some earnestly seeking God. This is my personal Faithlife account. It doesnt cause comfort, which might be expected, but revulsion because of the nature of evil. Eventually I became a Christian during an episode of Star Trek while reading a LifeMagazine article about "The Groovy Christians of Rye, New York." Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved. . Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. But disagreeing with someone is not the same thing. I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. I can see why many walk away . 5) Likewise, everything we do for others should NOT be because we love them, but to bring glory to God. In general, my beliefs do align with RC Sproul. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! Im so glad that God rescued me from my foray into Calvinism a couple of years ago. I know there are some whose solution is that God limits Himself so that He is not all-knowing; I dont see this in Scripture. I am not trying to hurt or be cruelI am trying to say that ideas must have basis, and one does not get to declare an idea and then refuse to defend it rationally by appealing to humanitys inherent inability to understand it, and THEN proceed to give examples of why what is a contradiction in the doctrine really isnt a contradiction. Ah, I didnt catch that. We all went to Bostons Youthtimeno mention of Calvinism, Armininism or in between like me. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. The larger discussion is one I think those who wish to explore this issue would find interesting, but I simply cannot quote all of it (and I hope its OK to quote as much as I do here- if this will create legal issues for the blog, please strike the comment). I always try to be sensitive, and Ive communicated before that I agree that theology should take a backseat. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Ive lost track of the number of times in blog comments where it has been insisted that it means that we are as bad as we can be. Jeff B. If I threw a piece of chalk at you, in one very real sense I would be the cause of that chalk flying through the air, having exercised the strength of my right arm. I saw this is a problem, and I do think Deb and Dee have addressed it. Im not doubting what you say, but PLEASE (and this goes for everyone) try to document this type of thing. I dont think that is what TWW is for, and if it were then I wouldnt be here. In between cleaning out my car and doing other various jobs around the house, it came to me. Im concerned with the preoccupation of defending Calvin when someone is hurting. Cheers you on. Thats what I think the intention of this blog post was. Youd be shocked! ), The best treatment of this question Ive read is by John Piper, so Im not sure youd want to read it. To be honest most of the people who Ive bumped into that come across as dogmatic Calvinist are really regurgitating talking points. It sounds to me like a generation of bloggers has mainstreamed hyper-Calvinism. Or maybe a better example would be if someone said The practice of withholding baptism from infants is evil, Im sure people would rush to defend their position. All we ask is that you pray for us when you get mad at us. I think the scripture uses the language of both perspectives, so it is not a view without merit. Accept that Calvinists findpeace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. But I know the principles are the same. That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life.. Neither is TULIP. But whatever I believe about the sovereignty of God, it is MORE important to me to believe that God does not author evil and he does not desire for those he loves to suffer. And toss in a side dish of I cant be wrong. I will say they are much more composed personalities. My young son-in-law has just been diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. (My experience, from childhood on.). For a village to be wiped out? We pulled no punches, but I believe we came away with a greater respect for each other and, dare I say, love. There were many songs that resonated with me, especially I Dont Know How to Love Him. for me that meant there was much i had to learn about loving Jesus. But I really, truly want to be done with the Paul! They think they are helping and by knowing what they believe about Calvinism, it will be of comfort to them. As some of you know, I have been through my share of abuse, not nearly as graphic and terrible as some, but enough to leave its scars. Im not saying that they are incapable of making the mistake, but, since you say that this is what many people come away with, it could be that they communicated it poorly. There is something that has been horribly misinterpreted in the verse about All things work together for good..etc It has almost created a cult of catastrophe. CALVIN! I didnt really love Him then, either, He always seemed so distant. It was so strong that I knew I had to write what was going on inside of me in connection with my childhood abuse. every denomination that isn't explicitly Calvinist: all of them except Presbyterians and Reformed every denomination that is explicitly non-Calvinist: Methodists, Pentecostals, Adventists, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox Prof_Acorn 2 yr. ago TULIP stands for total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible . At the end of the class, he was VERY sure where he stood- a non-Calvinist. Everything. This is the place where all the puzzle pieces do not fit for me, and I am OK with that. One of the problems in these conversatiosn is that some Calvinists will say, Cal does not teach X!, and maybe it does not(? Barrett 29. There are Christians who remain Christian, who believe in Christ, without seeing Calvinism supported in the Bible. Confused? Thank you for helping me out. That has been my experience in dealing with Calvinists online, or lurking at their forums or blogs, yes. Dr Abraham Kuyper (1837-1920) was a Dutch Calvinist theologian, philosopher and politician. Ive not tried to convince anyone that they are sinful or wrong for not believing what I believe. I was a Jesus Movement convert, too in 1972. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. Deb and are are well aware of the criticism we are receiving from some non-Calvinists because we feature sermons by Wade Burleson. But, nothey will say, you dont have to agree with me! If you read it, you will most likely have a heart attack. Or reformed, predestined, predestination, sovereignty,. CALVIN!. @ Muff Potter: I grew up with a no talk policy and then experienced the same restrictions in church later on when I experienced abuse. B. Warfield said, "The Calvinist, in a word, is the man who sees God. The 5 pillars of calvinism are not found in these creeds. Regarding the 3rd view- well, I dont know if Ive stated this clearly before, but Ill give it a go just to be clear. But it is not- God has power over every molecule and can prevent it from messing up his redemptive plan. The thread on JAs blog really threw me off kilter. Believe me, Ive tried. Olson has occasionally been accused of heresy for not adheringto the current YRR view of doctrine. In fact, I would have said that TWW was more anti-Calvinist than it was anti-Abuse. Calvinism may be cool right now, but it doesnt reflect the God I have known and loved for over 40 years. There are 5 major points of disagreement between Calvinists and Arminians. Thanks for the link to the article on Sproul, Jr. As many are probably thinking, what would Sproul, Sr. have to say about this? If you read non-Calvinism is evil youd probably feel a desire to defend your viewpoint too. However, I have repeatedly heard calvinists call other believers heretics and blasphemers because they disagree with a pillar of calvinism (eg, they have a different definition of Gods sovereignity, or they believe Christ died for the sins of all). Thank you, Deb. . How wonderful to remember those days! If you heard this preached, it might be from a Hyper-Calvinist church. From accuracy to portability, that #1 pick beat nearly every other model in our lineup for every metric. This is what Calvinists need to come to terms with. And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. I used to think I was too till I went to Bible College and studied it in more depth. They are 1) the extent of man's depravity, 2) whether election is conditional, 3) the extent of Christ's atonement, 4) the nature of God's grace and 5) whether Christians will/must persevere in the faith. Recently, Julie Anne Smith, of the Spiritual Sounding Board, hada bit of a crisis in dealing with Calvinism. Pg 75 Should the conversation be halted? By accurate, I mean that its the definition of the term when it came into being. Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? @wartwatch Not even the milk toast "We regret if anyone was offended"? every denomination that isn't explicitly Calvinist: all of them except Presbyterians and Reformed, every denomination that is explicitly non-Calvinist: Methodists, Pentecostals, Adventists, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox. And if we go to ourselves, were going to get something like what elastigirl wrote above. But maybe there is just too much pain and hurt for that to be possible. We can all agree that automaton doctrine is evil. God is NOT in control. I admit, I tend to just let people rant any way they want to and hold them (so to speak) when they are done. This is merely a nice way of saying that God hasnt enlightened you to the truth. They should not get to define theology that has been around much longer than them. Hopefully that will be winding down soon and Ill be able to get back on track this week or next. And no, I did not. Why didnt he write a short book on a more important subject, like Robert Burtons The Anatomy Of Melancholy, written after Calvins death? But for the most part, until I started studying apologetics, I didnt really care about the supposed differences and still dont except to understand but not as a means of division. For example, the word total in Total Depravity is an absolutethere is no such rational idea as partly total, which is what some Calvinists want to say when they declare that humans are not as bad as they could beas if this matters in the dualistic Calvinist paradigm: God is Good, and youare not. EGOTISM. We were just grateful to be around otherChristians. Therefore, I wanted to keep the door open in this discussion. There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. I figured (maybe arrogantly, but I prefer to think of it as optimism) that I could correct a few misconceptions I saw and then the whole discussion could just go away. So done with neat little systems with all the ends tucked in And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, Which commandment is the most important of all? Jesus answered, The most important is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Lots of the Calvinists I have come across on the internet the past 13 15 years think you have to have advanced college degrees, spend ten years in school, be fluent in Hebrew and Koine Greek, have an exhaustive knowledge of the patristic writings, etc., to not only truly grasp Calvinism, but in their eyes, to be permitted to even begin to criticize it. I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. (I mean, Star Trek?). God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.. Your voice is missing! But I dont think I have to pick. They equate Calvinism as spiritually intellectual stuff and non-Calvinist theology as far below reformed doctrine. Tell himhow much you love the Lord and live outyour Christianlife. if man does NOT get to decided the level of his depravity (by knowing good from evil and choosing it) then God must decide FOR himwhich means, again, that not being as bad as you could be is irrelevant. I disagree on some points with everyone I respect. They want pure milk easy to digest, soothing, warms their tummy, meets their needs, gives comfort, nourishes them and helps them grow. That is how important this is and why I posted my article in the first place. Never once, have I ever thought that these folks were not saved. Online, of course, its much harder to gauge actually, impossible, since you have no idea who is reading what youre writing. Sproul Steve Lawson Voddie Bachham Wayne Grudem People Guilty Of Greatly Spreading The False "Free Will" Gospel: Bill Bright Billy Graham Charles Finney And on occasion theyll even claim to love you, and to be rebuking you for your own good in order to bring you back to a more Biblical perspective. After all, there are reasons lots of men and women have bought into it over the last few hundred years. But there are reasons not to make it an issue. Until these last five years, Ihad thought it possible for everyone to get along, even attend the same church. Jeff S (and B for that matter), you sound like a good and kind man and a thoughtful speaker. When I correct someone, mostly my goal is to show them that the ones who taught them this horrible doctrine are the outsiders with fringe beliefs, not them. LOVE, this comment at a whole, Muff. He is noted for a broad view of what constitutes Protestant "orthodoxy." And so, I also agree with Nick on this: To me, being fed pat answers is more analogous to being fed sawdust because fibre is good for you.. But that doesnt mean I ignore what others have looked at in scripture and believed about it. I recently engaged the discussion on Denny Burks website regarding the PC(USA) rejecting the song In Christ Alone because of the line The wrath of God was satisfied. But Jesus and he should know praised his Father for hiding these things from the wise and learned, revealing them instead to little weans. Someone on another blog (I think it was another blog, unless I saw it here earlier) posted a link to this video. How can a bridge be built when the side you are attempting to reach constantly moves its shoreline back and forth in an effort to maintain its monolithic sovereignty as THE only standard of true Christian thought? Tthe book recommend by someone on this thread, Is God to Blame? Is helping me shake off the residual effects of hyper-Calvinism, too. When we hold to a law or principle that we think makes us better Christians but instead, causes existential damage to others, then something about that law/principle is awry and needs thorough reconstruction. And any idea that causes people existential damage is wrong. If we are acting primarily out of love, this becomes good works and is worthless. I opened it in Pages, then assiduously pruned out many, many pages of endnotes and bibliography, and numerous prefaces etc that werent Calvins. But hes not saying that God is actively driving every aspect of that molecules behavior. It was like the only choices I had were to swear allegiance to Calvin or give up my beliefs that align with what he taught about grace. You wrote: Jeff [S], whether it was my misperceptions or real perceptions of the doctrine that you hold dear to your heart, someone trying to correct my faulty ideas of Calvinism isnt going to benefit me whatsoever if I am at the emotional/spiritual end of my rope. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. This item can do it all and do it all the better than the rest. But my point wasnt to proof text Calvin. My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. There are some who would consider me non charitable. It means you are thinking for yourself and we encourage you to continue to be the loyal opposition. Michael Horton, in For Calvinism, w/ an intro by Roger Olson (a book I will probably keep mentioning, if you dont mind, because it deals with the issues discussed here and on other blogs) even has a chapter on the obnoxious ways of some Calvinists, and how to get past it. Jeff S, you said this: If you think I should be silent whenever I see Calvinism misrepresnted, then that isnt right.. I am sorry that you feel this way, because it does sound like you just want an open field assault on Calvinism and for Calvinists to hold their tongue. That is the only argument they have. In a faith that is centered on love, (What greater love is this?) it is hard for me to understand why abused people are so often further destroyed by that faith as presented by others. Bridget, would you mind documenting instances of this, if its not too much trouble, because I would be very interested in knowing if any of these people would make such a basic mistake about the concept of Total Depravity.
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